Curse

Kaida the Heartless · Aug 02, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

You assume that because one primary is being adjusted, that the rest need be adjusted as well. Hello! If they were equal, we wouldn't be balancing them, now would we?

The only primaries that even come close to the passive nature of expertise are soul reaping and to much lesser extents, divine favor and mysticism. With soul reaping you can't control the gain of energy (diff thread). Divine favor is already balanced as needed, and mysticism grants backloaded energy returns. Expertise hands you free energy just for using a skill; skills that are much more common and broad than monk healing spells and any enchantments.

Like I stated above, which is STILL being missed by some of you, in nice big capital letters:

RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES.

I repeat:

RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES.

Did you catch that?

RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES.

Take your "touch necro" and fight a touch ranger. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert dervish build here" and fight a R/D Scythe. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert sin build here" and fight a R/A. You're going to lose.

Why is this? Because they outlast you with naturally high defenses against nearly everything and an almost infinite supply of energy to spam YOUR skills.

Being versatile is fine. But let me ultimately refere to this quote:

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Rangers are slowly mastering every other class's builds.

Let me draw a pretty picture if you still don't understand.

Just for the heck of it, lets say an assassin build get these ratings:

Attack: * * * * * * *
Defense: *
Utility: *

I think we can all agree that assassin's are a glass cannon of sorts. Now, let me give you the ranger build version:

Attack: * * * * *
Defense: * * *
Utility: * * *

Naturally, the ranger will have less damage but higher statistics in other areas (stances, self heals, etc) For every bit of damage the ranger can't achieve, hes simply beating you out in other categories.

Granted this is just a simple diagram that is obviously much more complex underneath, I think it illustrates the general idea.

It's feeling more and more like the only people that don't want the ranger touched are those with 4 of them sitting on their account at the moment. At least, that's the gist I'm getting here.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this point so hardcore when I don't even play this game anymore. It's just amazing that people can't see why expertise needs alteration. I'm done arguing my points since they are apparently going over people's heads nomatter how I explain them.

And just so noone can use this card, ranger was one of my most played characters in PvP.

kostolomac · Aug 02, 2008, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Take your "touch necro" and fight a touch ranger. You're going to lose.

Depends on the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Take your "insert dervish build here" and fight a R/D Scythe. You're going to lose.

Again depends on the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Take your "insert sin build here" and fight a R/A. You're going to lose.

And again it depends of the build being used by both sides.

The reason people put critical strikes in the same boat as expertise is because it's also a gimmicky attribute , so is soul reaping and to some extent fast casting and leadership. Those are all gimmick attributes , demanding that only one is fixed because it's "broken" is , how to put it nicely *scratches head* stupid. Eliminate all gimmick attributes and take away a big part of GW's versatility and charm or leave them alone and let people enjoy the multitude of possibilities.

Bulletdodger · Aug 02, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

You assume that because one primary is being adjusted, that the rest need be adjusted as well. Hello! If they were equal, we wouldn't be balancing them, now would we?

Take your "touch necro" and fight a touch ranger. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert dervish build here" and fight a R/D Scythe. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert sin build here" and fight a R/A. You're going to lose.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

We are not balancing them , narrowminded people want the "balance".
They are equal , both Strenght , Critical Strikes and Expertise have different mechanisms , but rely on the same , IT MAKES THEM JACKS OF ALL WEAPONS , Warriors make more damage then other with the same weapons , Assasins have a bigger chance for critical then others with the same weapons , Rangers use those weapons more effective ( aka less energy cost of attacks ). Rangers have stances , Warriors have more armor and assasins are natural gankers ( don't give me the crap of sins don't having blocking skills and self heals , they do have good defensive mechanisms ).

Necros , Mesmers and Eles are JACKS OF ALL SPELLS , Necros have SR to be rewarded for their killing ( or the deaths of their allies ) , Mesmers cast everything faster ( reducing the risk of getting interrupted and making a lot of damage in no time ) and Eles simply have more energy then anyone else.
Just because players made Expertise more popular doesn't mean that is OP , just try to realize the potential of the other primaries.

The battle between a class and its ranger counterpart is about the build and the skills of the opponents. The Toucher has stances to protect him from attacks , but the blood necro is going to kill him quickly ( ofc if you know how to play ), the same analogy goes for D vs. R/D and A vs. R/A , don't forget Dervishes and Sins can use a secondary profession as well , which opens many possibilities.

N1ghtstalker · Aug 02, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

snip snip snip
And just so noone can use this card, ranger was one of my most played characters in PvP.

other classes have builds that annihilate rangers tho
R/D doesn't have condition removal, throw blind on and he's done for
small example of this necro build
[N/A toxic chill spiker;OAdTUYD61xNnF2z8s38OqqKAA]
i don't think a sway ranger can fight against that
etc etc
just cuz rangers can use their high defences and use another class their attacking abilities doesn't make them superstrong warriors
because those other classes can use another's abilities to fight back
like a monk using [channeling] for more energy etc etc

plastichead · Aug 02, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

leave expertise alone! unless you want to decimate the GW population even further.

Thizzle · Aug 02, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker

other classes have builds that annihilate rangers tho
R/D doesn't have condition removal, throw blind on and he's done for
small example of this necro build
[N/A toxic chill spiker;OAdTUYD61xNnF2z8s38OqqKAA]
i don't think a sway ranger can fight against that
etc etc
just cuz rangers can use their high defences and use another class their attacking abilities doesn't make them superstrong warriors
because those other classes can use another's abilities to fight back
like a monk using [channeling] for more energy etc etc

1. It was ArenaNet's main idea to make a game where you could be versatile and do more than just play one simple class.

2. [Antidote Signet]

MagmaRed · Aug 02, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Critical Strikes too then! I mean we have A/R's using bows, A/D using scythes, A/P using spears, A/W using hammers, axes, and swords!

OOH, OOH! And Soul Reaping too!!!!
N/Rt healers, N/E nukers, N/Mo protectors, N/Me hexers.

Can it be countered? Yep. Since it can be countered, it isn't broken. If if couldn't be countered, then there would need to be a fix. Since there is a counter, it should be left alone.

N1ghtstalker · Aug 02, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thizzle

1. It was ArenaNet's main idea to make a game where you could be versatile and do more than just play one simple class.

2. [Antidote Signet]

if there's room for that in the R/D build but i don't think there is

Tyla · Aug 02, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Critical Strikes too then! I mean we have A/R's using bows, A/D using scythes, A/P using spears, A/W using hammers, axes, and swords!

OOH, OOH! And Soul Reaping too!!!!
N/Rt healers, N/E nukers, N/Mo protectors, N/Me hexers.

You know, the same goes for A/X and N/X. Necros rely on either hex stacking or pure spikes like Blood Spike to be effective in PvP and that's it now. Oh, and that ugly N/Rt bar.

Critstrikes is just "lol".

Quote:

Can it be countered? Yep. Since it can be countered, it isn't broken. If if couldn't be countered, then there would need to be a fix. Since there is a counter, it should be left alone.

I'm not on either side of nerfing Expertise or not on this part, but counters =/= balanced. By that same logic everything in the game should be left alone, because then there is complete balance. I thought people were past this phase of stupidity?

upier · Aug 02, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

When you have such easy ways of e-management as Expertise, SR or Leadership - this enables easy mode for the classes with access to that e-management.

If easy mode is desired or preferred then such e-management is fine.
If not - then it is not.

I don't feel that easy mode is acceptable (although it IS fun! I LOVE my SR!) - so I can not agree with Expertise.

/signed for a nerf

lord of all tyria · Aug 02, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

What's broken? RaO, scythes. Nothing was wrong with expertise before that, so expertise isn't the thing that breaks it now.

Sigma Onkoron · Aug 02, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Its fine the way it is. Leave it the way it is.
/notsigned

Kanyatta · Aug 02, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

It's not broken, don't "fix" it.

/notsigned

Kaida the Heartless · Aug 02, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

When you have such easy ways of e-management as Expertise, SR or Leadership - this enables easy mode for the classes with access to that e-management.

If easy mode is desired or preferred then such e-management is fine.
If not - then it is not.

I don't feel that easy mode is acceptable (although it IS fun! I LOVE my SR!) - so I can not agree with Expertise.

/signed for a nerf

qft.

So as long as something can be countered it isn't broken?

Super Meteor Blast 1E, .25 Cast, 0R
Skill. Does 9k damage to target.

Prot Spirit counters this. It's not broken, right?

(Btw, I stole that from someone else)

Expertise is supposed to make the ranger versatile. I didn't say completely remove its ability to reduce non-ranger skills. I said reduce it's effectiveness with them.

Quit playing build wars up there and pay attention to the points being made.

Kanyatta · Aug 02, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Super Meteor Blast 1E, .25 Cast, 0R
Skill. Does 9k damage to target.

Prot Spirit counters this. It's not broken, right?

Wrong, Prot Spirit does not counter it. With a 0 recharge and 1 energy, prot spirit can't be maintained like this magical spell. Therefore, your example has no counter.

There's many effective counters to thumpers and R/A's and such. Basically the every "not really bad skill" Monk Protection line, and many Paragon shouts. I'll admit, the Escape R/D is really overpowered. Seriously, an 80% maintainable speed boost and 75% block rate for 5 energy, that's broken; but I digress... one skill isn't worth nerfing an entire attribute for.

DOCB22 · Aug 02, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

oh yes they did such a good job with Soul Reaping let's get them to change Expertise /sarcasm off

Bowstring Badass · Aug 02, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

It's not broken, don't "fix" it.

/notsigned

Fix broken stuff not unbroken stuff.

Kaida the Heartless · Aug 03, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Why is everyone assuming this is just for the R/D meta? There are better solutions for dealing with the R/D's (such as Escape). Expertise is effecting more things than just that build. We're talking globally here.

And yes, prot spirit is a counter for meteor blast unless your prot spirit lasts less than 7.7 seconds. You fail at being an ass. Gtfo.

RotteN · Aug 03, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Take your "touch necro" and fight a touch ranger. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert dervish build here" and fight a R/D Scythe. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert sin build here" and fight a R/A. You're going to lose.

So you just typed out "RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES." three times and then you claim the respective classes will lose when facing the ranger variant ? Time to go reread your own capslocked text i guess...

First of all, you're wrong. A dervish will eat a R/D alive is he's smart enough. Not to mention he could just bring [[wild blow] and get it over with in 5 seconds. Same goes for an assassin, all he needs is some stance removal, which happens to be a pretty popular skill in a lot of attack chains ([[wild strike]). The necro might be a close fight, i agree, but blood necro's are just realy weak anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Rangers are master at something : being a jack of all trades. They're called "a team's toolbox" for a reason. Pure ranger bars are all about versatility : packing interupts, damage, degen and survivability in one skillbar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

It's feeling more and more like the only people that don't want the ranger touched are those with 4 of them sitting on their account at the moment. At least, that's the gist I'm getting here.

I wouldn't give a damn if expertise does or does not influence non-ranger skills. I play decent ranger bars in PvP (cripshot, b arrow, magebane, ...), none of which need expertise on off-profession skills to work. However, i don't mind it working on other profession's skills. It's not insanely overpowered. Surely, a R/D has more defense, but he sacrifises damage and an elite slot for that ...

I'd rather have them not change it than pull some half-assed fix on it making everything even worse.

Marverick · Aug 03, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Seriously, just make [Escape] end on attack. I mean, you don't exactly attack while you're escaping... that'll fix all the R/D problems. Please don't screw expertise over any more.